Can Anyone Explain Why *UPDATED*
It’s NOT legal to get paid to have sex (in most places), but it’s totally legal to get paid to have sex on camera?
Call it a naive question, but really, is there some legal loophole that makes it okay?
I’m not even asking about the logistics for the existence of porn in general and I’m not calling for making porn illegal, that’s entirely another post. I’m just wondering how it can be legal if exchanging money for sex is generally illegal?
This is what I’m calling a wild Friday night. Questioning the legality of porn is so hot. I think it’s my sad version of Melissa Summers’ Moms Gone Wild (within reason).
UPDATED! Of course, Defective Yeti would have the answers. Here you go!
It’s not an answer, per se, but it’s as close as our kooky American law system goes for now.
Posted by Melissa on June 17th, 2006 under Observations
June 17th, 2006 at 8:25 pm
Dude! Totally! I have asked that question myself.
Obviously, we need to contact a porn lawyer and put this question to him/her.
Waiting hopefully for one of your commenters to know the answer to this…
June 18th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
I figured this out while napping on an ice pack (rotator cuff; don’t ask).
See, porn stars are acting, whereas prostitutes are really having sex.
Right? Right? I mean, what else?
June 18th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
I have no idea why….
June 18th, 2006 at 6:39 pm
Maybe money only changes hands through a third party not directly involed in the sex acts?
June 19th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Thank God for Defective Yeti… now I have so many new and expanded career options and all legal, LEGAL!
June 19th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Exactly!
“Well, Officer, he was just paying me for my time…what happens afterward is just between two consenting adults. Don’t you think this old, flabby anti-social man is sexy? I do.”
June 20th, 2006 at 5:33 pm
Yurrrrggghhhhh… I think I was betta off not knowing.
*mental hairball*
;)
June 21st, 2006 at 3:37 pm
That is really interesting… Hey, I want to get my own domain and was wondering what you thought of blue host. And do they provide the software then to design? Just wondering…
June 30th, 2006 at 3:46 am
Hi, I have an answer to this question. I have worked in the sex industry legally, including camming. Having sex on live cam or recorded media is legal as long as the two (or three etc.) parties involved are consenting adults. They are getting paid as a pair (I knew a married couple who gave “shows”). It’s only illegal to get paid for sex if someone else is paying you to perform a sexual act ON THEIR PERSON. I see no difference between camming and porn. Honestly I’m surprised and chagrined that people didn’t know this. There is such a stigma involved with the sex industry in general, is this why there is such ignorance?
June 30th, 2006 at 5:53 am
Upon second read I see that your group is interested in the question of why interactive sexually-oriented camming is not illegal.
To this question I agree there are not clear philosophical answers in the context of US law.
However, it is very significant that:
1) Most (but not all) of the discussion comments on this thread refer to “porn,” not “prostitution.” Perhaps some comparisons to prostitution were implied. But why then would you suggest contacting a PORN lawyer rather than a defense attorney?
2) There are missing comments regarding other “sex work jobs” which would be appropriate in your thread, primarily phone sex operators. Surely you’ve heard of them.
June 30th, 2006 at 9:38 am
Hi Becca, thank you for your replies!
To answer:
1) Because we don’t know what the hell we are talking about in general, hence the questioning. Questions lead to learning, don’t knock the process of getting there. I’m sure by saying a “porn attorney” this only implies an attorney who does know what the hell they are talking about in regards to the legalities of porn.
2) I’m sure that there are components of sex work I/we have missed. Namely, because I started the post with a simple interest in how we differentiated between types of sex work, in legal terms. I am in no way attempting a moral stance on any type of sex work. If you like, I care very much about the vicitimization of women I see in porn. I do not mind if women knowingly, willingly, independently, and with a clear mind engage in sex work. Men are less likely to be victimized, exoticized in porn (not being the sex class) and women are more likely to fall prey to hurtful, demeaning tactics (being the sex class) Those in power subjugate those not in power consistently and avidly in the porn industry (think gang bangs, bukkake, blow jobs that make the girl vomit repeatedly, the hag men on hot girls, the money shot all over her face, etc.) Gay men are also subject to power struggles on film. I do not know all the pros and cons to legalization and regulation of prostitution. Nor do I know that the regulations involved in other types of sex work give women any leverage.
I find it interesting in what the U.S. and individual states deem inappropriate (and therefore, illegal) and what it deems appropriate (legal). I see that it all has to do to whom you perform sex acts. This, still, makes very little sense to me but it is a classic example of how we condemn/justify acts in a single breath.
I think there is ignorance in this field because the legalities involving sex are generally not displayed, although I’m sure they are not hidden either. The average porn/cam/show viewer probably knows these things are legal and that’s that.
I claim ignorance in this area, but it’s not that I’ve attached a stigma to sex. Girls fuck. It’s okay. Sites like Waking Vixen.com are good examples of women-positive sex work.
Thank you for this insider view! I’d love to hear more from you in this arena.
June 30th, 2006 at 3:44 pm
I have the most knowledge and experience in exotic dancing or stripping.
Strip club rules don’t vary a lot from state to state as far as I know. In general the rules fall along these lines: fully nude dancers without alcoholic drinks on the premises, or topless dancers for clubs with bars. Rules about contact, amount of “flashing” with nude clubs, dress code for dancers, money rules (dancers are contractors, and they are required to pay fees), vary by club. Contact isn’t allowed for any dancer while nude anywhere as far as I know. Big name, showy clubs may not allow any touching and require their dancers to wear “gowns” to emphasize their “classy” environment. Smaller clubs may permit as much contact as legally possible. Both types of clubs make money.
See what you think of site.
July 2nd, 2006 at 1:47 pm
I actually don’t like that site much anymore, just thought it might be a jumping point for discussion. If you’re still following the thread, please do speak up I won’t jump on you.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:57 pm
Hi Becca, you can jump if you like! I enjoy having you here and thanks for the great comments.
I will say that I know of one club in IL that informally allows dancers to touch to the point of penetration on stage while serving liquor and dancing nude. Now, I doubt that is their formal position, but it is a commonplace occurance.
As for the website? A few things bother me, such as this line, “I didn’t think feminism was about women thinking alike. I thought it was about women thinking for themselves.” I disagree with that line of thought. Yes, you are definitely encouraged to make decisions for yourself, but there is the encouragement of education and critical thinking in those decisions. How many strippers/dancers are in the business with regard to making an educated, well-thought out decision? I’m sure there are, of course, but I will wager that the majority do not. Circumstance most often lead to entering the business.
In reading the essays in the site, I don’t see where the feminism comes in. If the only feminist “argument” is that the feminist movement means that EVERY decision a woman makes is inherently feminist, then I find it weak.
July 4th, 2006 at 6:31 am
No, it’s not commonplace. And you would lose your wager.
July 4th, 2006 at 10:51 pm
I’m sorry, Becca. I mean that nude touching/penetration is a commonplace occurance at that particular club. At that club, I’ve seen this with my own eyes several times. I don’t mean that I think that occurs any where else, which I don’t know and I would not imagine it is.
Do you believe that the majority of women are entering the erotic dancing circuit under highly educated, desired conditions? And if so, why?
Why would I lose that wager? I see no proof, either statistical or experiential, that says that most women who enter into the erotic dancing profession did it because they found the work inherently attractive and desirable over other work. Money is the number one attraction. I’ve worked jobs I didn’t like for money, so have a lot of other people. However, a whole number of other women enter the field because they need an education or are working on one, they need to find their calling and this is good for now, or they weren’t encouraged to do something else, believing they don’t have anything else. They were not making a feminist, educated decision. They were making the only decision they felt they had at that time.
No one I knew entered into the profession because as a little girl they always dreamed to dance for men. If you have a different experience, please share it.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
Melissa
Please check out this website’s posters.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Link mistake
http://www.stripperweb.com
If you dare, post there.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Thanks, Becca. But I’m unsure of what you are asking me to do and why.
Dare?
Why would I post something on stripperweb about the social politics of stripping? It’s not a “daring” thing to do or not do.
In reading the forum postings, it’s all about making money, comfort levels and how to get through them, and about fears of getting “stuck” dancing forever. This is a site for working dancers, with tips for working dancers.
Examples:
“I sometimes wonder why I started dancing in the first place. I guess I started to help pay for school which i finished, but here I am still shakin it 3 years later. This is the longest job Ive ever had and that scares me. I went to school for graphic design, and still do some graphics on the side, freelance work i guess. Im worried that I will never get out of dancing. We all see those girls, who are now women, still dancing. I dont want to end up like that and I fear I will.”
“If you see a hot guy and his ugly friend sitting together at a table, go sit on the ugly guy’s lap and act like he’s Prince Fucking Charming. Ignore hot boy. Ugly Boy is used to girls fawning over his friend, but if you pay attention to him and act like you could care less about his friend, he’ll spend cash.”
July 12th, 2006 at 12:18 am
I thought you might be interested in seeing that there are a lot of intelligent women doing this.
My last post.
July 12th, 2006 at 1:41 am
I fully believe there are a lot of intelligent women doing this. Absolutely! I never insinuated they would not. I believe it is possible to be a feminist stripper, a feminist sex worker, a feminist anything. However, it is with the idea of majority that I question.
I do question the idea that the MAJORITY of women entered the profession by a fully educated choice and desire.
The profession, by design and prosperity, is not set up to give women the power in the situation. There are many professions which, by design, allow men to hand over power to the women but the power is not inherently theirs.
I am more than willing to be wrong on these, but the evidence I see doesn’t support that.
I do hope you choose to stay in the future!